Raspberry Pi as a desktop or settop computer
When the Raspberry Pi first came out, it was appealing to think of it as an ultra-inexpensive computer for your desktop (perhaps as a very secondary unit) or to play media on your TV. Note: this wasn't the intent of the Raspberry Pi designers. They wanted a totally hackable, cheap, simple (as possible) computer to encourage kids to dive into computing. They fondly remembered they youth spent hacking and mastering BBC Micro and other home/educational computers. There was little competition at the price point of the Raspberry Pi. But it wasn't powerful enough for a comfortable desktop (for most people). Since then, a few things happened: - a bunch of new SBCs inspired by the Pi have been released. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages compared with Raspberry Pi models. None has the depth of support of the Raspberry Pi. - Raspberry Pi models improved a lot but the price crept up. Note: older models are still available at roughly original prices. - streaming media players were introduced at RP prices. They play better with the many forms of DRM that infest the services. Oh, and new TV sets include embedded streaming media players. (This bothers me on a philosophical level.) - tiny x86 boxes have become a lot better and cheaper My current opinions: - instead of a desktop computer, consider a laptop. That market is much larger and the competition has produced some quite good option. - for desktop computers, x86 seems to be a more practical choice. At the low-end, I'd probably pick one based on an Intel N100. I'd select a brand like Bee-Link or models from a similar tier of Chinese brands. I actually want more performance on my desktop so I currently use a much more powerful Bee-Link Mini PC (a SER7). - for set-top boxes, first I'd get a dedicated streaming device. If I also felt the need for a computer, I'd pick an N100 box. We do this (except our mini PCs are much older). - Raspberry Pi computers are still a great choice for learning and for embedding into projects. Much more fun than x86. Note: all of these things run or can run Linux. Except for the Apple streamers.
On 2024-06-22 12:12, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
My current opinions:
- instead of a desktop computer, consider a laptop. That market is much larger and the competition has produced some quite good option.
I use laptop for work, and I hate it. I end up adding mouse, monitor, and keyboard (because one key on laptop is broken, and it will cost $500 to replace the whole one-piece keyboard). With this hybrid work schedule, I have to carry it back and forth, along with its power supplies, headset, mouse, etc. I miss the old days. All your stuffs are at office, and you just show up with lunchbox. As for Raspberry Pi as desktop, I tried and gave up long ago. Yes, laptop is better choice. Because by the time you add, case, mouse, keyboard, monitor, stand, and all proprietary adapters and cables, investment in laptop will last you longer.
On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 14:15:45 -0400 William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I use laptop for work, and I hate it. I end up adding mouse, monitor, and keyboard (because one key on laptop is broken, and it will cost $500 to replace the whole one-piece keyboard). With this hybrid work schedule, I have to carry it back and forth, along with its power supplies, headset, mouse, etc.
I miss the old days. All your stuffs are at office, and you just show up with lunchbox.
William, No problems with work laptops here. I am a touch typist and I find the Lenovo keyboard adequate at worst. At home as well as at work, I prefer to plug into an extra monitor. My only problem with it is that it runs Windows. I am typing this on my personal Lenovo laptop running GNU/Linux. For anything other than a desktop, I find that mice are inferiour to trackballs. I strongly prefer mice for mechanical CAD. In coffeeshops, in bars, and on the arms of my front porch muskoka chairs, trackballs do not need table space. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 3:39 PM Howard Gibson via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 14:15:45 -0400 William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I use laptop for work, and I hate it. I end up adding mouse, monitor, and keyboard (because one key on laptop is broken, and it will cost $500 to replace the whole one-piece keyboard). With this hybrid work schedule, I have to carry it back and forth, along with its power supplies, headset, mouse, etc.
I miss the old days. All your stuffs are at office, and you just show up with lunchbox.
William,
No problems with work laptops here. I am a touch typist and I find the Lenovo keyboard adequate at worst. At home as well as at work, I prefer to plug into an extra monitor. My only problem with it is that it runs Windows.
I am typing this on my personal Lenovo laptop running GNU/Linux. For anything other than a desktop, I find that mice are inferiour to trackballs. I strongly prefer mice for mechanical CAD. In coffeeshops, in bars, and on the arms of my front porch muskoka chairs, trackballs do not need table space.
You're doing CAD on a laptop - - - that to me sounds really really NOT fun! (Why?) Regards
On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 16:40:13 -0500 o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
You're doing CAD on a laptop - - - that to me sounds really really NOT fun!
It has a large monitor plugged into it. CAD requires at least two monitors. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On 2024-06-22 16:39, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
I am typing this on my personal Lenovo laptop running GNU/Linux. For anything other than a desktop, I find that mice are inferiour to trackballs. I strongly prefer mice for mechanical CAD. In coffeeshops, in bars, and on the arms of my front porch muskoka chairs, trackballs do not need table space.
Trackball? You mean trackpoint, red rubbery button between G, H, B, no?
On 2024-06-22 16:39, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
I am typing this on my personal Lenovo laptop running GNU/Linux. For anything other than a desktop, I find that mice are inferiour to trackballs. I strongly prefer mice for mechanical CAD. In coffeeshops, in bars, and on the arms of my front porch muskoka chairs, trackballs do not need table space.
Trackball? You mean trackpoint, red rubbery button between G, H, B, no?
No. Trackball. Take an old-fashioned ball mouse, turn it on its back. Instead of sliding the mouse across the desk to move the ball, you move the ball directly with your fingers. I'm just on the point of logging in to Staples to get one to use in the car. It can work just sitting on the center console,
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I liked trackballs in the early days, but those only had 2 buttons and no wheel, so I had to give in and mouse. I cannot use a full size mouse, my hand gets too tired. I can only use a smaller travel mouse, but they are getting harder to find. And I learned to turn usage 90 degrees, resting my arm on the desk across in front of me, so up is to my left. It took a little adjusting, but now is normal. But, with this conversation, I just ordered a real trackball from ebay, there are many of them there, including usb and with as many buttons as you could want. Also a few wireless ones We shall see if it works for me. <pre>--Carey</pre>
On 06/23/2024 10:03 AM CDT mwilson--- via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2024-06-22 16:39, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
I am typing this on my personal Lenovo laptop running GNU/Linux. For anything other than a desktop, I find that mice are inferiour to trackballs. I strongly prefer mice for mechanical CAD. In coffeeshops, in bars, and on the arms of my front porch muskoka chairs, trackballs do not need table space.
Trackball? You mean trackpoint, red rubbery button between G, H, B, no?
No. Trackball.
Take an old-fashioned ball mouse, turn it on its back. Instead of sliding the mouse across the desk to move the ball, you move the ball directly with your fingers.
I'm just on the point of logging in to Staples to get one to use in the car. It can work just sitting on the center console,
---
On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 at 12:58, CAREY SCHUG via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I cannot use a full size mouse, my hand gets too tired.
I don't mind using a mouse but I don't like the amount I have to move my index finger to use a scroll wheel on one. To remedy this, I use a Lenovo Scrollpoint mouse. https://support.lenovo.com/ca/en/solutions/pd011205-lenovo-scrollpoint-mouse... The scrollpoint works like the trackpoint on some keyboards. Nudging it up, down, right or left works like spinning a scroll wheel. Like a trackpoint, the scrollpoint is pressure sensitive. Applying greater pressure is like spinning a scroll wheel faster. I wish this had become more popular. I think it's quite difficult to find this mouse these days. I'm always praying mine won't break. -- Scott
On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 12:13 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk < talk@gtalug.org> wrote: When the Raspberry Pi first came out, it was appealing to think of it as an
ultra-inexpensive computer for your desktop (perhaps as a very secondary unit) or to play media on your TV.
I never thought the first two or three revs had enough power to do this. They were a good fast way to learn Linux without reconfiguring a Windows PC, which is mainly how I used them. I tried OpenELEC and some of the other media distributions and was frustrated. IIRC you had to pay separately to unlock hardware support for certain codecs. Out in the world, paired with cheap peripherals they were a ground-breakingly inexpensive way to create a WWW-access desktop. Note: this wasn't the intent of the Raspberry Pi designers. They wanted a
totally hackable, cheap, simple (as possible) computer to encourage kids to dive into computing. They fondly remembered they youth spent hacking and mastering BBC Micro and other home/educational computers.
That may have been how they started out, but things evolved. As a pure hobby/maker platform they had solid competition from Arduino, but as a cheap computer they had the field mainly to themselves for quite a while before we saw workalikes like the BeagleBoard.
There was little competition at the price point of the Raspberry Pi.
This self-awareness of early near-monopoly status went to their heads. Wearing multiple hats and in many different contexts I found the Foundation impossible to work with as a partner. This opened a window for others in the space who were hungrier. - a bunch of new SBCs inspired by the Pi have been released. Each has its
own advantages and disadvantages compared with Raspberry Pi models. None has the depth of support of the Raspberry Pi.
True that none of the others could match the community around the Pi. That meant the Pi could have multiple custom Linux distributions for it while with other boards you mostly had to trust the vendor's distro. But at a corporate entity IMO the Foundation offered nothing that I would even charitably call "support". - Raspberry Pi models improved a lot but the price crept up. Note: older
models are still available at roughly original prices.
They came out with the Pico which seemed like little more than more aggressively competing with Arduino. And the Zero looks more like an embedded device than a hobbyist one. Then, after a year the audience were hoping for an upgraded board from the V4, all they gave us in 2020 was that embedded-in-a-keyboard Model 400 crap. The V5 didn't come out till 2023. As far as I was concerned all of the innovation in that space was coming from the case manufacturers. - streaming media players were introduced at RP prices. They play better
with the many forms of DRM that infest the services.
Used as media devices, they also have much better UIs, remote control support, etc. IMO the Pi was never a credible player in this field. Nobody ever used them as the core of a pirate media device.
- tiny x86 boxes have become a lot better and cheaper
Just last week my technophonic friend needed a new no-frills PC to replace their decade-old Dell. I helped them get an Intel NUC on sale at Canada Computers. Small as anything, powerful enough for anything except gaming, less than $600 complete, includes Windows and runs it well, and it still has a 3.5" audio jack. A Pi 5 kit with all parts is about $250, but that still means you have to assemble it yourself (with the added complexity of needing a CPU fan) and primary storage is still a MicroSD card. My current opinions:
- instead of a desktop computer, consider a laptop.
I would only give that advice to people I dislike. I would say to avoid laptops unless portability is a requirement. There are SO MANY reasons; - Desktop RAM tends to be cheaper and more expandable.r - Desktops can upgrade their GPU to enable gaming, video editing or AI assist; laptops can't. - Picking the right keyboard for me is critical as it's where I spend most time interfacing with my computing world. - Ditto screens. What if you want yours higher resolution, or larger, or curved? - Most laptop keyboards and speakers SUCK. Ergonomics? Forget them. And not everyone likes trackpads as their pointing device. The main reason for buying a laptop that's not mobile is for simplicity. The components are all pre-matched (regardless if the matches are optimal) and pre-assembled, including peripherals. If you have any interest in expandability, gaming, AI, or decent input devices, a laptop isn't your best bet.
That market is much larger and the competition has produced some quite good option.
The simplicity means that you can probably buy a laptop easily at Walmart or Bestbuy. As is frequently the case there are always tradeoffs as one chooses their balance between simplicity and flexibility. As for me... I have zero interest in the Raspberry Pi now. Its day is done and its producers are jerks. If anything, I am hoping to see the next generation of commonly-used Raspberry Pi style experimenter boards to be using RISC-V instead of ARM. - Evan
| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | | On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 12:13 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk < | talk@gtalug.org> wrote: | | When the Raspberry Pi first came out, it was appealing to think of it as an | > ultra-inexpensive computer for your desktop (perhaps as a very secondary | > unit) or to play media on your TV. | > | | I never thought the first two or three revs had enough power to do this. They were not great as desktops, but they worked in a pinch. At that time. Hence the modifier "very secondary". | They were a good fast way to learn Linux without reconfiguring a Windows | PC, which is mainly how I used them. Or to let a kid play without compromising the household's real computers. | I tried OpenELEC and some of the other | media distributions and was frustrated. IIRC you had to pay separately to | unlock hardware support for certain codecs. You had to pay to unlock one CODEC. It was easy and cheap. It was conforming to licensing rules, something cheap SBC's may not do. | Out in the world, paired with cheap peripherals they were a | ground-breakingly inexpensive way to create a WWW-access desktop. | | Note: this wasn't the intent of the Raspberry Pi designers. They wanted a | > totally hackable, cheap, simple (as possible) computer to encourage kids to | > dive into computing. They fondly remembered they youth spent hacking and | > mastering BBC Micro and other home/educational computers. | > | | That may have been how they started out, but things evolved. As a pure | hobby/maker platform they had solid competition from Arduino, but as a | cheap computer they had the field mainly to themselves for quite a while | before we saw workalikes like the BeagleBoard. They overlapped with Arduino. At the time, for hardware hacking, Arduino was way weaker and way easier to understand. Arduino had a different great community. | > There was little competition at the price point of the Raspberry Pi. | | | This self-awareness of early near-monopoly status went to their heads. | Wearing multiple hats and in many different contexts I found the Foundation | impossible to work with as a partner. This opened a window for others in | the space who were hungrier. They offered what they offered. What kind of thing could you imagine that they would do with a partner? Subsidize/discount? No margin. Pretty much all customers were treated equally: they had to go through selected distributors and those distributors apparently could not mark up the product. | - a bunch of new SBCs inspired by the Pi have been released. Each has its | > own advantages and disadvantages compared with Raspberry Pi models. None | > has the depth of support of the Raspberry Pi. | > | | True that none of the others could match the community around the Pi. That | meant the Pi could have multiple custom Linux distributions for it while | with other boards you mostly had to trust the vendor's distro. But at a | corporate entity IMO the Foundation offered nothing that I would even | charitably call "support". The oldest hardware still gets official software updates. Most competitors don't do that for even a year. | - Raspberry Pi models improved a lot but the price crept up. Note: older | > models are still available at roughly original prices. | > | | They came out with the Pico which seemed like little more than more | aggressively competing with Arduino. Quite a different thing. In things I think about, the ESP32 seems like a better choice, but that's all daydreaming. | And the Zero looks more like an | embedded device than a hobbyist one. Those are not opposites. | Then, after a year the audience were hoping for an upgraded board from | the V4, all they gave us in 2020 was that embedded-in-a-keyboard Model 400 | crap. The V5 didn't come out till 2023. Their supply chain problems were terrible. I have no particular insight about why. | As far as I was concerned all of the innovation in that space was coming | from the case manufacturers. You weren't paying attention. There were a lot of things other than cases. For example, cameras, hats, etc. Creating an open platform is exactly what we need. I wish all the SBC manufacturers would ship with a universal boot environment so distros could support all of them. Sadly, UEFI looks like the only hope, even though it is too fat for my taste. Raspberry Pi was popular enough and open enough to attract some distro support. | - streaming media players were introduced at RP prices. They play better | > with the many forms of DRM that infest the services. | | | Used as media devices, they also have much better UIs, remote control | support, etc. Yes, but it was possible to add remotes. | IMO the Pi was never a credible player in this field. Nobody ever used them | as the core of a pirate media device. Of course they did. | > - tiny x86 boxes have become a lot better and cheaper | > | | Just last week my technophonic friend needed a new no-frills PC to replace | their decade-old Dell. I helped them get an Intel NUC on sale at Canada | Computers. Small as anything, powerful enough for anything except gaming, | less than $600 complete, includes Windows and runs it well, and it still | has a 3.5" audio jack. A Pi 5 kit with all parts is about $250, but that | still means you have to assemble it yourself (with the added complexity of | needing a CPU fan) and primary storage is still a MicroSD card. A Pi 5 doesn't seem to be $250. PiShop.ca offeres Pi 5/4G, case with fan, power supply, for $114.95 + tax + shipping (not a sale price). You need to add your own SD card for the OS (PiShop charges $14.95 for a 32G card that is preloaded). There are some nice-to-have things but they are optional. The competition for a cheap box is an N100 box. But maybe not: prices seem to have gone way up. Last fall I bought a Bee-Link N95 box from Amazon.ca for something like $120; now it is twice that. $600 seems like a lot for a minimal box. Not sure what "complete" means. Does that include a monitor, keyboard, and mouse? There are reasons to buy something better than minimal. My main desktop is a quite powerful mini PC. <https://www.amazon.ca/Beelink-7840HS-Computer-Desktop-Display/dp/B0CH7XHM7M/> | My current opinions: | > | > - instead of a desktop computer, consider a laptop. | | | I would only give that advice to people I dislike. I would say to avoid | laptops unless portability is a requirement. For a minimal system, a cheap laptop is even more complete than a mini PC. It has a much better footprint than a mini PC and, I presume, space is expensive in modern homes. | There are SO MANY reasons; | | - Desktop RAM tends to be cheaper and more expandable.r | - Desktops can upgrade their GPU to enable gaming, video editing or AI | assist; laptops can't. | - Picking the right keyboard for me is critical as it's where I spend | most time interfacing with my computing world. | - Ditto screens. What if you want yours higher resolution, or larger, or | curved? | - Most laptop keyboards and speakers SUCK. Ergonomics? Forget them. And | not everyone likes trackpads as their pointing device. Agreed, but those are probably not concerns for minimal systems. You can My most recent laptop was $300 (new, from Costco.ca). I admit that the deal was pretty good. It came with 8G of RAM -- enough for ordinary users. I added an 8G stick in the empty socket (cheap) -- generous for ordinary users. It came with an iGPU. Not powerful. I don't need a powerful GPU, especially for a low-end system. It has an HDMI out for attaching a monitor. I think that it is limited to 30 Hz at UltraHD resolutions (I haven't checked). I don't use it. You can plug in a keyboard or mouse if you want to. I don't. You can plug in speakers through an analogue audio socket. I don't (so the sound is poor). So most of your complaints are solveable. | The main reason for buying a laptop that's not mobile is for simplicity. | The components are all pre-matched (regardless if the matches are optimal) | and pre-assembled, including peripherals. If you have any interest in | expandability, gaming, AI, or decent input devices, a laptop isn't your | best bet. | | | > That market is much larger and the competition has produced some quite | > good option. | > | | The simplicity means that you can probably buy a laptop easily at Walmart | or Bestbuy. | As is frequently the case there are always tradeoffs as one chooses their | balance between simplicity and flexibility. | | As for me... I have zero interest in the Raspberry Pi now. Its day is done | and its producers are jerks. You are not everyone. I must remind myself that I'm not everyone. I'd love to know in which way they are jerks. But perhaps these are things that one must not talk about. | If anything, I am hoping to see the next generation of commonly-used | Raspberry Pi style experimenter boards to be using RISC-V instead of ARM. There are a bunch of them. So far, most are inferior at the same price. I hope and expect that will change. There are a few rays of sunshine at the low end. For example, the ESP32 C-series uses RISC-V (but isn't suitable for Linux). Here's a random example of a low-end one that can run Linux (barely, I'd guess): <https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/1005006442665261.html> There are higher end ones.
participants (8)
-
CAREY SCHUG -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Evan Leibovitch -
Howard Gibson -
mwilson＠Vex.Net -
o1bigtenor -
Scott Allen -
William Park