Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons
GNOME have finally made good on their threat to remove all support for icons on the Desktop. Any files in ~/Desktop no longer produce icons on the screen. The GNOME Shell plugin that was the last thing that allowed it is no longer supported. GNOME Shell itself seems broken: what was the Shell Preferences browser page now bring up a 404 page from gitlab. As someone who needs constant visual reminders of what he needs to be doing, this is a huge blow for me. Desktop icons are a kind of todo list for me. My own actual real desktop seldom has flat space on it*: right now it's relatively clear, with only 7 different MicroPython development boards on it. But in real and virtual life, my desktop is my work in progress. I guess GNOME's telling me my work's done now? I'm not even sure if there are other desktops for Ubuntu any more that aren't KDE. cheers, Stewart *: a real picture from a month ago: https://twitter.com/scruss/status/1439765045257383940
You could try installing Ubuntu Mate 21.10, as Mate supports desktop icons. On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:49 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
GNOME have finally made good on their threat to remove all support for icons on the Desktop. Any files in ~/Desktop no longer produce icons on the screen. The GNOME Shell plugin that was the last thing that allowed it is no longer supported. GNOME Shell itself seems broken: what was the Shell Preferences browser page now bring up a 404 page from gitlab.
As someone who needs constant visual reminders of what he needs to be doing, this is a huge blow for me. Desktop icons are a kind of todo list for me. My own actual real desktop seldom has flat space on it*: right now it's relatively clear, with only 7 different MicroPython development boards on it. But in real and virtual life, my desktop is my work in progress. I guess GNOME's telling me my work's done now?
I'm not even sure if there are other desktops for Ubuntu any more that aren't KDE.
cheers,
Stewart
*: a real picture from a month ago: https://twitter.com/scruss/status/1439765045257383940
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Thank you all for reminding me that I have done the right thing by never installing GNOME if an alternative is available. One would think that "the developers know better than end-users what users want" attitude would have softened over the years. Apparently not. KDE is big and bloated and sometimes overkill, but it never insults its users. I have also found MATE to be a kinder, gentler, less user-hostile version of GNOME and my second choice as a desktop. Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56 On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 at 09:59, John Weintraub via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
You could try installing Ubuntu Mate 21.10, as Mate supports desktop icons.
On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:49 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk < talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
GNOME have finally made good on their threat to remove all support for icons on the Desktop. Any files in ~/Desktop no longer produce icons on the screen. The GNOME Shell plugin that was the last thing that allowed it is no longer supported. GNOME Shell itself seems broken: what was the Shell Preferences browser page now bring up a 404 page from gitlab.
As someone who needs constant visual reminders of what he needs to be doing, this is a huge blow for me. Desktop icons are a kind of todo list for me. My own actual real desktop seldom has flat space on it*: right now it's relatively clear, with only 7 different MicroPython development boards on it. But in real and virtual life, my desktop is my work in progress. I guess GNOME's telling me my work's done now?
I'm not even sure if there are other desktops for Ubuntu any more that aren't KDE.
cheers,
Stewart
*: a real picture from a month ago: https://twitter.com/scruss/status/1439765045257383940
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On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:10 AM Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
KDE is big and bloated and sometimes overkill, but it never insults its users.
I prefer the elegant design and centralized vision of the GNOME desktop, but the whininess of the GNOME hatred here never gets old. Mike
On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:47:30AM -0400, Michael Hill via talk wrote:
I prefer the elegant design and centralized vision of the GNOME desktop, but the whininess of the GNOME hatred here never gets old.
When a desktop going from version 2 to 3 throws away everything users are used to, and the developers simply don't care, then it deserves any hate it receives. If they wanted to have a totally new vision (which is perfectly fine to do), they should have started a new project, not hijacked an existing one. Personally what I want a desktop to do is: Let me launch programs (preferably by just typing the name in) Let me resize windows. Let me maximize windows. Let me close windows. Let me alt+tab between the windows. Anything other than that is just extra. Gnome 3 failed at quite a few of those basic things, at least for the first while which was inexcusable. These days I tend to just use xfce. kde does the job too, but tends to be slower and I don't need the extras it adds. -- Len Sorensen
| From: Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:47:30AM -0400, Michael Hill via talk wrote: | > I prefer the elegant design and centralized vision of the GNOME | > desktop, but the whininess of the GNOME hatred here never gets old. Agreed. Gnome screen (not really a desktop metaphor) UI is mostly simple, which I mostly like. In fact, since I first lived with GUI "desktops" (35 years ago?), I've been battered into submission. Customization is a bit like building a sandcastle below the high-tide mark. I just take the desktop that the distro prefers since I expect it to be better supported. | When a desktop going from version 2 to 3 throws away everything users | are used to, and the developers simply don't care, then it deserves any | hate it receives. The only way to break "technical debt" is to start over. I actually like the result. | If they wanted to have a totally new vision (which is perfectly fine to | do), they should have started a new project, not hijacked an existing one. Agreed. But leaving an unmaintained chunk of software is an attractive nuisance. Maintaining two versions is very resource intensive. Compare the Gnome Shell 2->3 transition to the Python 2->3 transition. | Personally what I want a desktop to do is: | Let me launch programs (preferably by just typing the name in) In Gnome Shell: type the Windows key, type as much of the program name as you have to, hit return when your choice is the first offered. | Let me resize windows. Yes, by conventional mousing. I don't know of a keyboard-only way because I've never wanted one. | Let me maximize windows. Yes, by conventional mousing. | Let me close windows. Yes, by conventional mousing. But it is better to get the application to close the Window. | Let me alt+tab between the windows. Not exactly. First: ALT+TAB seems to work like Windows key + TAB. I like using the Windows key because I've conceptualized the Windows key as the way of talking to the Gnome Shell whereas the application gets ALT. Window+TAB gets you a choice of running applications to cycle through. All terminal windows, for example, will be represented by a single icon. If you wish to select a particular terminal window, you move to the universal terminal icon and type Down Arrow to be able to select. I almost never use the down arrow version. Possibly because it is a bit awkward. But a flat list of windows would be bad for me: I have at least 66 windows open right now; most are Firefox windows. Selecting between apps-with-windows works well for me. | Anything other than that is just extra. | | Gnome 3 failed at quite a few of those basic things, at least for the | first while which was inexcusable. I don't remember such a failure. It may be so. | These days I tend to just use xfce. kde does the job too, but tends to | be slower and I don't need the extras it adds. I've rarely used KDE. It seemed a bit busy the few times I tried it. I've not used XFCE enough to be comfortable with it. I seem to remember that it requires few resources, which would be welcome on older machines. On newer ones, the enormous waste of heavier systems doesn't matter much. The transition that hammered some of my machines was when compositing the desktop started requiring 3-D graphical ops. Slow on many of my older machines. That seemed gratuitous. I have too little understanding of the graphics stack (it is so big! does it need to be?). For some reason, my older machines' desktops seem to have gotten faster again. I suspect that the software OpenGL implementation has improved. But my observations are confusing. For example, one of the machines that slowed down actually had an OK iGPU (AMD C50); perhaps the driver improved.
On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 at 11:03, Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 10:47:30AM -0400, Michael Hill via talk wrote:
I prefer the elegant design and centralized vision of the GNOME desktop, but the whininess of the GNOME hatred here never gets old.
When a desktop going from version 2 to 3 throws away everything users are used to, and the developers simply don't care, then it deserves any hate it receives.
If they wanted to have a totally new vision (which is perfectly fine to do), they should have started a new project, not hijacked an existing one.
I think that Lennart has just reduced the whole problem to one sentence. A new vision is good - the history of Linux is littered with "new visions," most of them long deceased ... however, the ones that succeed move us forward. But GNOME - as he points out - didn't so much create a new vision as simultaneously hijacking and destroying an old one. Hugh sees this as a rewrite, but when almost nothing of the former "vision" or paradigm remains, it's really a new project. And yeah, if you spin it off as a new project you may be abandoning the old one - but at least if you abandon it there's an opportunity for someone to pick it up ... Which brings up an interesting point. As much as people scream about GNOME3, I don't think anyone forked GNOME2, which they're more than welcome to do. Someone offended by KDE4 forked KDE3 and carried it on as the Trinity Desktop Environment ( http://www.trinitydesktop.org/ ), which is still going. So I guess the GNOME3 haters just aren't that motivated ... If anyone is wondering where I stand on this (I'm sure most don't care but one or two might) - I never liked GNOME2, and I really dislike the behaviour of GNOME3. But I don't have any skin in the game because I still use Openbox on most machines (with 'fbpanel' and 'dmenu' or 'rofi' as a launcher). If I feel the need for a full desktop, LXQt isn't bad and lighter weight than the alternatives. -- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 at 12:47, Giles Orr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
As much as people scream about GNOME3, I don't think anyone forked GNOME2, which they're more than welcome to do.
I think someone has, mate. <https://mate-desktop.org/> - Evan
On 2021-10-20 11:03, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
When a desktop going from version 2 to 3 throws away everything users are used to, and the developers simply don't care, then it deserves any hate it receives.
Yup. The main reason for Gnome removing desktop icons was that the code was buggy. They didn't ask the users whether they wanted the bugs fixed or the icons gone. They picked the latter. TBH, I'm still mad at Gnome for getting rid of the bar you could dismiss with a click and it made the Strar Trek door noise. I think that went in Gnome 1.2 → Gnome 2.0 I've just switched to xubuntu. I think it uses XFCE. So far (10 minutes in) it mostly works. It does fail on one thing, though:
Let me alt+tab between the windows.
I can't seem to do that. And I can't cycle between workspaces, either. I hope it's not because I'm using an Apple keyboard. It's the least disappointing keyboard I've tried, but Linux barely understands it. cheers, Stewart
On 2021-10-20 19:59, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
I've just switched to xubuntu. I think it uses XFCE. So far (10 minutes in) it mostly works. It does fail on one thing, though:
Let me alt+tab between the windows.
The Fedora version of XFCE does support alt-tab between windows. --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 07:59:49PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
Yup. The main reason for Gnome removing desktop icons was that the code was buggy. They didn't ask the users whether they wanted the bugs fixed or the icons gone. They picked the latter. TBH, I'm still mad at Gnome for getting rid of the bar you could dismiss with a click and it made the Strar Trek door noise. I think that went in Gnome 1.2 → Gnome 2.0
I've just switched to xubuntu. I think it uses XFCE. So far (10 minutes in) it mostly works. It does fail on one thing, though:
I can't seem to do that. And I can't cycle between workspaces, either. I hope it's not because I'm using an Apple keyboard. It's the least disappointing keyboard I've tried, but Linux barely understands it.
alt+tab works for me in xfce. Pretty sure I never had to change any settings for that to work. Only change I make to default xfce is deleting the second button bar at the bottom since it takes up space and does nothing useful for me. -- Len Sorensen
On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 at 19:59, Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2021-10-20 11:03, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
When a desktop going from version 2 to 3 throws away everything users are used to, and the developers simply don't care, then it deserves any hate it receives.
Yup. The main reason for Gnome removing desktop icons was that the code was buggy. They didn't ask the users whether they wanted the bugs fixed or the icons gone. They picked the latter. TBH, I'm still mad at Gnome for getting rid of the bar you could dismiss with a click and it made the Strar Trek door noise. I think that went in Gnome 1.2 → Gnome 2.0
I've just switched to xubuntu. I think it uses XFCE. So far (10 minutes in) it mostly works. It does fail on one thing, though:
Let me alt+tab between the windows.
I can't seem to do that. And I can't cycle between workspaces, either. I hope it's not because I'm using an Apple keyboard. It's the least disappointing keyboard I've tried, but Linux barely understands it.
(Admittedly from memory:) try Ctrl-Alt-<left|right>-arrow-keys to change desktops. That is, of course, if you can find those keys on the Apple keyboard: Control-Option-arrow? -- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
I've been a XFCE user since 2005, probably earlier, and every time I try a new Gnome or KDE desktop, I get back to XFCE. It works, it's light, the panel works just fine, Alt-Tab works as expected, Alt-` switches between windows of the same program (like the dozen terminals I keep opening all the time), you can have several virtual desktops and Ctrl-Alt-arrow to change between them. It supports icons on the desktop, icons on the menu, and takes very little memory. The other desktop environment that I used extensively is Cinnamon. It's fast, it's pretty, everything works, and maybe someday I will take the time to build it under RedHat Enterprise, the distro I am forced to use because it's the company issued Thinkpad that I explicitly requested (otherwise I would have been issued a MacBook or the Air variant). But as XFCE is as good as Cinnamon, I have little incentive to install dozens and dozens of libraries and wrestle with make to, well, make it. Mauro https://www.maurosouza.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. Em qui., 21 de out. de 2021 às 14:30, Giles Orr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> escreveu:
On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 at 19:59, Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2021-10-20 11:03, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
When a desktop going from version 2 to 3 throws away everything users are used to, and the developers simply don't care, then it deserves any hate it receives.
Yup. The main reason for Gnome removing desktop icons was that the code was buggy. They didn't ask the users whether they wanted the bugs fixed or the icons gone. They picked the latter. TBH, I'm still mad at Gnome for getting rid of the bar you could dismiss with a click and it made the Strar Trek door noise. I think that went in Gnome 1.2 → Gnome 2.0
I've just switched to xubuntu. I think it uses XFCE. So far (10 minutes in) it mostly works. It does fail on one thing, though:
Let me alt+tab between the windows.
I can't seem to do that. And I can't cycle between workspaces, either. I hope it's not because I'm using an Apple keyboard. It's the least disappointing keyboard I've tried, but Linux barely understands it.
(Admittedly from memory:) try Ctrl-Alt-<left|right>-arrow-keys to change desktops. That is, of course, if you can find those keys on the Apple keyboard: Control-Option-arrow?
-- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Thanks to everyone who chimed in to say that Alt-Tab works for them on XFCE. It absolutely doesn't for me. I've tried: * checking the contents of ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-keyboard-shortcuts.xml: it has the expected (and confusing) contents that seem to work for everyone else * changing the key definition in Window Manager → Keyboard. Even deleting them, logging out, logging back in, redefining them - nope. * checking that the keys on my preferred (well, least-worst) keyboard are generating the right scan codes using xev. They are. It is immensely annoying that Xubuntu can't get this right. Stewart
On 2021-10-22 21:13, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
It is immensely annoying that Xubuntu can't get this right.
I've restored the Alt-Tab behaviour, incidentally, by taking the simple but drastic step of removing everything from ~/.config, logging out, logging back in, then selectively restoring the files and folders to .config that look like things I might need. This doesn't help work out what caused the issue, but the issue is gone now. I suspect it was something from my six year old Ubuntu installation fighting with the new Xubuntu update. Stewart (and with my day job hat on: no, I can't get you a Raspberry Pi 2 Zero W, even if it is the only aarch64 machine you can theoretically obtain for USD 15. Our sister company in the USA got 2400 of them on Thursday about 4 pm, and even limiting them to one per order, sold out by 9:30 am on Friday.)
My workaround is to stay on Ubuntu 18... -steve
Thank you all for reminding me that I have done the right thing by never installing GNOME if an alternative is available. One would think that "the developers know better than end-users what users want" attitude would have softened over the years. Apparently not.
KDE is big and bloated and sometimes overkill, but it never insults its users. I have also found MATE to be a kinder, gentler, less user-hostile version of GNOME and my second choice as a desktop.
Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56
On Wed, 20 Oct 2021 at 09:59, John Weintraub via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
You could try installing Ubuntu Mate 21.10, as Mate supports desktop icons.
On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:49 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk < talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
GNOME have finally made good on their threat to remove all support for icons on the Desktop. Any files in ~/Desktop no longer produce icons on the screen. The GNOME Shell plugin that was the last thing that allowed it is no longer supported. GNOME Shell itself seems broken: what was the Shell Preferences browser page now bring up a 404 page from gitlab.
As someone who needs constant visual reminders of what he needs to be doing, this is a huge blow for me. Desktop icons are a kind of todo list for me. My own actual real desktop seldom has flat space on it*: right now it's relatively clear, with only 7 different MicroPython development boards on it. But in real and virtual life, my desktop is my work in progress. I guess GNOME's telling me my work's done now?
I'm not even sure if there are other desktops for Ubuntu any more that aren't KDE.
cheers,
Stewart
*: a real picture from a month ago: https://twitter.com/scruss/status/1439765045257383940
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On Tue, 19 Oct 2021, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
GNOME have finally made good on their threat to remove all support for icons on the Desktop. Any files in ~/Desktop no longer produce icons on the screen. The GNOME Shell plugin that was the last thing that allowed it is no longer supported. GNOME Shell itself seems broken: what was the Shell Preferences browser page now bring up a 404 page from gitlab.
As someone who needs constant visual reminders of what he needs to be doing, this is a huge blow for me. Desktop icons are a kind of todo list for me. My own actual real desktop seldom has flat space on it*: right now it's relatively clear, with only 7 different MicroPython development boards on it. But in real and virtual life, my desktop is my work in progress. I guess GNOME's telling me my work's done now?
Windowmaker (wmaker) is available and can have desktop icons. (I don't use them). -- Chris F.A. Johnson
On Tue, 19 Oct 2021 23:49:45 -0400 "Stewart C. Russell via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
GNOME have finally made good on their threat to remove all support for icons on the Desktop. Any files in ~/Desktop no longer produce icons on the screen. The GNOME Shell plugin that was the last thing that allowed it is no longer supported. GNOME Shell itself seems broken: what was the Shell Preferences browser page now bring up a 404 page from gitlab.
Stewart, I hate desktop icons and I hate Gnome. I am not sure how to react to your post. :) FVWM does not support desktop icons and I love it. XFCE and LXDE probably do support them, and they make nice desktops. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
participants (12)
-
Chris F.A. Johnson -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Dave Collier-Brown -
Evan Leibovitch -
Giles Orr -
Howard Gibson -
John Weintraub -
Lennart Sorensen -
Mauro Souza -
Michael Hill -
steve＠linuxsuite.org -
Stewart C. Russell