Could have used that meetup a few yrs ago. I was working with a manufacture in Mississauga that wanted to replace the homebrew ERP system(access?? Blaaaa) and I was in the stages of rebuilding it using OpenERP(Odoo) but they didn't like the flow because they had been doing the biz the same way for over 30 yrs and just not possible in Odoo so they scrapped the project/and me :) Now they realize that they have to make some change and decided to go with http://openpro.com/ which isn't open at all. On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 9:23 AM, Marc Lijour via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

For business uses, we use Odoo. It's open source and simple enough to get started with a couple business functions like accounting. We actually launched the Odoo Toronto meetup group with another Odoo service provider (OERP). See https://www.meetup.com/Odoo-Toronto/ (slow right now)

For personal use, I found that Gnucash does the job.

On 2017-01-12 08:16 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

Greetings

Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what is normally called 'accounting' software (its really record keeping software but that's a different argument!).

What are you using that is, or could be, multi-user and has room for some complexity? (I am presently using 10 digit account numbers to get the granularity I want.)

TIA

Dee --- Talk Mailing Listtalk@gtalug.orghttps://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- *Marc Lijour* Email:marc@lijour.net Ring:3e447c5477143b7c881c0730c152f8f0678501e5 Join the Ring! <http://ring.cx> Skype:marclijour Phone: *+1 647 384 7746 <(647)%20384-7746> *

--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Oh I clearly knew that but the older people in the company were always pushing back. "Why do we need something new, we have this and it works" clearly it didn't work. it was amazing how it actually did work, the 'access db' didn't use keys. The guy that dev'ed it linked tables with text and not a unique key.... example "Part123" and "part123" were the same part , but showed up as two different parts in the system. :) and depending who used the application, they would update the inventory one which ever part came up ... "part123 = 10 parts" and "Part123 = 14" over all 24 parts, but funny when "part123 = 0" was down to 0 they would order more but actually had 14 still in stock.... It's a looong story... the owner was set in his ways. On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Marc Lijour <marc@lijour.net> wrote:

Odoo can be tailored, but at a cost (oftentimes underestimated by the customer). However, it's the best solution for those who need a custom-fit system -short of building one from scratch of course :-)

On 2017-01-12 09:29 AM, Digiital aka David wrote:

Could have used that meetup a few yrs ago. I was working with a manufacture in Mississauga that wanted to replace the homebrew ERP system(access?? Blaaaa) and I was in the stages of rebuilding it using OpenERP(Odoo) but they didn't like the flow because they had been doing the biz the same way for over 30 yrs and just not possible in Odoo so they scrapped the project/and me :)

Now they realize that they have to make some change and decided to go with http://openpro.com/ which isn't open at all.

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 9:23 AM, Marc Lijour via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

For business uses, we use Odoo. It's open source and simple enough to get started with a couple business functions like accounting. We actually launched the Odoo Toronto meetup group with another Odoo service provider (OERP). See https://www.meetup.com/Odoo-Toronto/ (slow right now)

For personal use, I found that Gnucash does the job.

On 2017-01-12 08:16 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

Greetings

Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what is normally called 'accounting' software (its really record keeping software but that's a different argument!).

What are you using that is, or could be, multi-user and has room for some complexity? (I am presently using 10 digit account numbers to get the granularity I want.)

TIA

Dee --- Talk Mailing Listtalk@gtalug.orghttps://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- *Marc Lijour* Email:marc@lijour.net Ring:3e447c5477143b7c881c0730c 152f8f0678501e5 Join the Ring! <http://ring.cx> Skype:marclijour Phone: *+1 647 384 7746 <%28647%29%20384-7746> * --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/lis tinfo/talk

-- *Marc Lijour* Email:marc@lijour.net Ring:3e447c5477143b7c881c0730c 152f8f0678501e5 Join the Ring! <http://ring.cx> Skype:marclijour Phone: *+1 647 384 7746 <(647)%20384-7746> *

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 10:36 AM, William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

This topic is one thing that GTALUG should at least meet and talk about. It is recurring and prevalent needs in all business. With enough beer, we'll think of something worth money. --

Based on what I'm finding it would a LOT of beer! Dee

On 01/12/2017 01:13 PM, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

On 01/12/2017 08:16 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

...

Greetings

Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what is normally called 'accounting' software (its really record keeping software but that's a different argument!).

What are you using that is, or could be, multi-user and has room for some complexity? (I am presently using 10 digit account numbers to get the granularity I want.)

I had pretty good luck with LedgerSMB. It is a fork of SQL-ledger. Both have a reasonable amount of Canadian content so it supports our tax structure.

It's written in perl and is reasonably extensible.

After reading some of the responses from others I would put out there that its worth taking a look at LedgerSMB. It is Open and there is paid support and an Accounting as a service based on it. -- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Jason Shaw via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

I feel obligated to point out freshbooks.com as Accounting as a Service based here in Toronto. I do work there, so I'm a touch biased, but it provides multiple users, mobile apps (android and iOS), as well as browser based ui.

Sorry - - - lots of companies/people think the web is secure. I'm not one of them - - - - especially when it comes to financial data. Regards Dee

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 02:30:06PM -0500, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:

I feel obligated to point out here that it is more often the case that a cloud provider is more secure than a standalone solution. If only because they can afford to spend more on hiring people to work on security full time.

And you have to take their word for it that they did that. If they did not and loose it all, or decide to shut down the company suddenly, how do you get the accounting data that you are almost certainly legally required to keep for a number of years? So is the cloud service safer than what lots of companies do themselves? Sure. Is it safer than doing it right? Almost certainly not. -- Len Sorensen

On 01/12/2017 03:28 PM, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

On 12 January 2017 at 14:50, Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>>wrote:

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 02:30:06PM -0500, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote: > I feel obligated to point out here that it is more often the case that > a cloud provider is more secure than a standalone solution. If only > because they can afford to spend more on hiring people to work on > security full time.

And you have to take their word for it that they did that.

​I think it's reasonable to ​suggest that not all cloud solutions are inherently less secure than all standalone systems.

One size does not fit all. Knowing the whole landscape is better than not knowing it. All solutions will have strengths and weaknesses, the priorities those in need will differ, and we're not here to judge.

One thing Freshbooks appears to do well is manage receivables, which is a sore point among consultants I know -- quick invoicing, followups, and facilitation of getting paid. This seems relevant to one of the points brought up by one person at Tuesday's meeting (ie, getting paid).

- Evan

The thing with most things like accounting packages is that the setup is a lot of work and they often take some significant care and feeding as time goes by. I spent a LOT of time fixing the invoice generation code to get something that I liked and felt looked professional and months importing data from our previous system. And then I would spend hours a month tracking overpayments/underpayments, deadbeat customers..... The thing to be said for "cloud" providers is that they often provide an easy to use quick start service. For someone generating a few invoices a month and a small customer base it can make a lot of sense over building a system capable of managing thousands of customers and generating thousands of invoices monthly. The problem is finding the right scale for your enterprise. -- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||

On Jan 12, 2017 2:30 PM, "Dhaval Giani via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: Hi, On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 PM, o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 12:28 PM, Jason Shaw via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

I feel obligated to point out freshbooks.com as Accounting as a Service based here in Toronto. I do work there, so I'm a touch biased, but it

<snip>

Sorry - - - lots of companies/people think the web is secure. I'm not one of them - - - - especially when it comes to financial data.

I feel obligated to point out here that it is more often the case that a cloud provider is more secure than a standalone solution. If only because they can afford to spend more on hiring people to work on security full time. I'd agree with this. Point to point, and end to end a larger network of trusted users tends to be more stable, from a security standpoint, than an ad hoc network. TOR endpoint monitoring is one kind of example of how security through obscurity was easily thwarted. However someone would still need the key, or an enormous amount of resources to decrypt any actual data. The web is only one class of internet layer transport. If your device is personally secured and your app encrypts for push/pull telemetry, data is generally safe enough when using the web as an entry point, operational errors notwithstanding. Russell Sent from mobile. Thanks! Dhaval --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

On 01/12/2017 01:13 PM, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

...

On 01/12/2017 08:16 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

...

Greetings

Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what is normally called 'accounting' software (its really record keeping software but that's a different argument!).

What are you using that is, or could be, multi-user and has room for some complexity? (I am presently using 10 digit account numbers to get the granularity I want.)

I had pretty good luck with LedgerSMB. It is a fork of SQL-ledger. Both have a reasonable amount of Canadian content so it supports our tax structure.

It's written in perl and is reasonably extensible.

After reading some of the responses from others I would put out there that its worth taking a look at LedgerSMB. It is Open and there is paid support and an Accounting as a service based on it.

Will give it a look. Thanks Dee

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 04:00:50PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY via talk wrote:

On 12/01/17 08:16 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

...

Greetings

Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what is normally called 'accounting' software (its really record keeping software but that's a different argument!).

What are you using that is, or could be, multi-user and has room for some complexity? (I am presently using 10 digit account numbers to get the granularity I want.)

Wave <https://www.waveapps.com/> is another Toronto-based web accounting software provider. I know the people behind it and they know what they're doing. I would trust their security more than the security on the average small business network. As for the "What happens to my data if they go out of business?" question, I'd check with the vendor to find out how to export data and do it on a regular basis.

2.9% fee! That's $29 for every $1000. This begs a question... are you using them?

One of the criterion to what you should be using is to find out if your accountant is familiar with what you're using. If they are not, which is more important to you, your accountant or the software you use?

Yes, eventually, you'd need to "export" to his/her format. -- William

On Jan 12, 2017 4:42 PM, "Christopher Browne via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: On 12 January 2017 at 16:26, William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 04:00:50PM -0500, CLIFFORD ILKAY via talk wrote:

...

On 12/01/17 08:16 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

...

Greetings

Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what

<snip>

...

One of the criterion to what you should be using is to find out if your accountant is familiar with what you're using. If they are not, which is more important to you, your accountant or the software you use?

Yes, eventually, you'd need to "export" to his/her format.

Hum? That's sensible if you handle accounting by paying a third party accountant to generate your accounting records. At one time, that used to be one of (AccPac, Bedford Accounting), back in the MS-DOS days. Don't forget VisiCac. In fact wasn't one of Microsoft's first succesfull apps Excel for Mac, eventually replacing VisiCalc. Harvard Graphics and Crystal Reports were also later used for assembling printed reports. It was said that Excels engine could process up to 1,000,000 records using input and output forms before you had to upgrade to Access RDBMS. But if you're actually managing your own accounting records, the question will be, what will your accountant charge for *reviewing* your records, and how does that vary based on what flavour of accounting system you're using. Wave claims that they make it easy to share appropriate records with your accountant; I imagine that's true. Whether or not that makes Wave a good choice is a separate question. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?" --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk Russell Sent from mobile.

On 01/12/2017 08:15 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 3:00 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

On 12/01/17 08:16 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

...

Greetings

Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what is normally called 'accounting' software (its really record keeping software but that's a different argument!).

What are you using that is, or could be, multi-user and has room for some complexity? (I am presently using 10 digit account numbers to get the granularity I want.)

Wave <https://www.waveapps.com/> is another Toronto-based web accounting software provider. I know the people behind it and they know what they're doing. I would trust their security more than the security on the average small business network. As for the "What happens to my data if they go out of business?" question, I'd check with the vendor to find out how to export data and do it on a regular basis.

One of the criterion to what you should be using is to find out if your accountant is familiar with what you're using. If they are not, which is more important to you, your accountant or the software you use? Ah yes - - - the 'wonderful' accountant.

Well, I dropped using an accountant when I went to a major firm and gave them my docs (which were laid out by GIFI codes) so only needed transferring to whatever they were using and explained that I saw three scenarios. That was to a junior member. About 2 weeks later I arrived for my appointment and was now told that due to the complexity of my stuff (one business, farming and a personal return) a senior member of the firm was required. He told me that I had 3 different scenarios to consider (my bill had also gone up by 250%). Told that (expletives deleted) that what he had told me was almost exactly what I had told the junior member I had started with. Told him as he didn't provide any value for fees that I thought that I didn't really need his services. Paid the useless sucker and left.

Didn't use another until a bank forced me to use an accountancy firm (which made an error (you are responsible for any errors even if someone else makes them on your behalf you know)). So now I'm much more likely to ask them if they would prefer to deal with Enron or me (Enron was managed by accountants and lawyers!) and leave. Have found a few other things that I couldn't get advice on from them so now I have a few trusted advisors - - - - but NO accountant!

Revenue Canada has reams of documents available. Often answer complex questions too. Got one senior advisor to change some stuff by using logic - - - that sort of surprised me. Hadn't run into too many thinking bureaucratic types before!

YMMV

When we started our first company we used an accounting firm the first year. YEP. That was a waste of money. We now use an accountant who lives in Simcoe. He does our taxes and year end statements but the book-keeping is done by us. He does a fine job and does not have the overhead of some guy on Bay St. He has provided lots of good advise on taxes and other issues but we are both happy for him to keep away from the book-keeping parts. -- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||