On Tue, Nov 5, 2024 at 9:53 AM o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 5, 2024 at 7:49 AM Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hi all.
I use my computer to do things -- communicate, manipulate content in various media and formats, organize my life, perform the various tasks required of me. I get involved in "how this is all done" to the minimum extent possible, though I understand that to some exploring the innards of the system is a source of passion for computing as much as it may be to others for cars, coffee, washing machines or the human body.
For most things, I tend to be comfortable with defaults until they stop working or unless I have a specific need for better performance. I try to be sanguine about technology rollovers -- Unix to Linux, X to Wayland, init to systemd, pulseaudio to pipewire, etc etc -- so long as they don't break my ability to do what I need to.
In this context, I am truly intrigued by
"Debian's 2014 decision to use systemd without requiring compatibility with any other init system was one of the most sleazy, kangaroo court railroad jobs there's been outside of politics and 1940's southern USA courtrooms."
for I have a hard time comparing the stakes of the two things being compared. In the realm of open source it's not like the Debian debate was between warring corporate special interests each looking to cash out. Is there reason to believe that the various factions in the systemd debate were NOT acting in good faith on behalf of what they thought was the best way forward? One may argue with the process but I don't think that Debian has really suffered much aftermath over the past decade.
Obviously in this world if you don't like something -- for any reasons, technical or not (see "Godot") -- you can fork or re-invent it. So apparently there are multiple re-inventions of init, of which systemd -- like ksh, vim, cups, ext4 and other defaults -- become most popular among mainstream distributions despite the many alternatives available.
I had never heard of Adéline or Void Linux before now. I was aware of Gentoo but have kept my distance. I will likely not give them another look because my application needs define/refine my OS choices. They appear to offer no benefits to my type of use but offer many potential risks if the apps upon which I depend don't like them.
Can someone make an ELI5 case why I should care about systemd alternatives?
I'm no expert but - - - - what I'm understanding is that the complaint is from a philosophical perspective.
Unix - - - tools designed to do one thing and doing it well working together to get what one needed done.
(In contrast - - - the M$ world loves complexity that is supposed to be hidden from the user because they are not wupposed to know anything about anything except how to pay someone how to set things up etc etc etc.)
So along comes systemd - - - - espoused by a more than rather arrogant young 'person' which will remove this area (init systems) that was not as neat nor worked as well as it could have except he was espousing changing things to something quite foreign to 'unix' style thinking - - - everything was supposed to be included in this sandbox. It could be argued that there was some improvement in some things but overall the working philosophy was not just changed - - - said individual trampled upon it and then with loud roars of glee declared said philosophy to be quite dead. (Not true as now there has started an investigation of 'micro services' which as I understand it is just about a 180 degree change from the everything (AND the kitchen sink) which is systemd. Just to make things more interesting said individual is now directly employed by M$ which, at least in my mind, begs some questions.
I do like your sense of imagination here. Now, I was actually present, when we were designing systemd, for some of the discussions. The only thing we were trying to do was fix a real problem - which users had complained about. No grand plans of how we are going to bring all this complexity and become like Microsoft world. If there was a clear design decision we made, it was systemd was for Linux and would use Linux features and not try to remain "unixy" and just use the bare subset but be cross platform. Now, I am sure Lennart and I will have a great laugh about how he went out to become a dictator with the use of systemd and how our evil plan succeeded. But seriously - let's stop with these complicated conspiracy theories. I was there when we talked about how/why systemd. A fact that is not known too well is Lennart did go with some of these ideas to then init systems and they were not interested in implementing them, so he just scratched his itch. Turns out he was right because systemd has now been adopted and is actually (surprise surprise!) liked by administrators who do something more complicated than a home setup. Dhaval